Monday, June 30, 2008

The Zane Hodges so-called free grace system affirms born again atheists!

I asked the following question to a free grace proponent concerning atheists: Some are even former pastors as the fellow who started the debunking Christianity blog. This is a real situation and a real person. Would this fellow be saved if he debunks Christianity for the remainder of his life or would he have really just been an unsaved false professor of Christ?

Free grace proponent answer: However, if any of them did happen to believe the message as stated by Jesus and Paul, and are now atheists, of course I would say they are saved.

The Bible of course says otherwise.

Romans 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Would the Spirit of God be powerless to keep a believer from becoming a Christian mocking atheist? Anyone?

John 10:4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

Are we to believe that some of the sheep of Jesus do not follow him and in fact turn on him?

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Are we to believe that eternal life goes to some who don’t know and in fact deny and mock Jesus?

John 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

Are we to believe that this prayer of Jesus went unanswered?

Are we to believe in a powerless gospel that is a mere offer of eternal life, but has no power to sanctify? Are we to believe a person who has truly been regenerated by God’s power and come to saving faith will turn to atheism and remain a mocking unbeliever for the rest of his life? I could go on and on with Scripture passages, but I will stop. True free grace comes with power. There is power in the blood!

Please offer up your comments on this powerless and distorted gospel that certainly qualifies as being “another gospel”!

10 comments:

jazzycat said...

I would certainly be interested in a defense of this view from those who affirm it!

Anyone?

mark pierson said...

Wayne,

They would say that Romans 8:14 "sons of God" is talking about a merited heirship, one different from the heirship that is unmerited, the heirship that all who are in Christ experience. The 'sons of God' heirship is experienced only by those who mature in their faith and go on to be those who walk after the leadings of the Spirit.

mark pierson said...

In other words, this is the stuff of dispensationalism gone wild with all its crazy dichotomies. Any wonder why my hatred for classic dispensationalism continues to grow? I now hate it more than liberalism - and THAT'S saying something.

jazzycat said...

I have noticed with the June 23 post that there seems to be a reluctance for them to defend their view on this blog that points to TRUE FREE GRACE!

mark pierson said...

"Chino Hills California" and "Ridgeland Washington" in your sitemeter I believe are "Danny" and "Alvin" respectively.

jazzycat said...

We certainly invite Danny and Alvin to interact here and defend their views. I know it is tougher on the road so to speak, but I will certainly give them a fair hearing as long as they do not mischaracterize Calvinism. Conversely, I will also accept correction if I mischaracterize their theology.

PowerFade said...

Suppose the atheist in your scenario repented on his deathbed and returned to his prior orthodox beliefs. Would you conclude that he was saved or unsaved during his time in atheism?

Thanks.

John W. Loftus said...

This caught me eye. You see, the whole question is silly from my perspective. Let me briefly explain.

If there is no Christian God then of course I was never saved...and neither are you. This is what I now maintain.

If the question is whether I believed in Christ and the gospel message, professed it, and spread it, then I did. I believed the message even if now I claim the message is false and delusionary.

The only kind of Christians we ever see are professing Christians. As far as I can tell you are professing Christians, and that's all you can say about yourselves, even if the Gospel is true.

So to say I was never a professing Christian is obviously false, because I was, just like you. To say I have not committed the unforgiven sin goes against any good interpretation of the relevant biblical texts. But to say that a professing Christian who's faith was not just to the bone, but to the very marrow, means your God rejected me when I believed in him and accepted with everything in me the gospel of grace. That, my friends, is a callous and indifferent God unworthy of nothing more than disgust from me.

Cheers.

jazzycat said...

Powerfade,
Human beings can only speculate about the salvation of others. From the small amount of information you give it would be extremely hard to even guess.

jazzycat said...

John,
Thanks for your visit.
You said………….
But to say that a professing Christian who's faith was not just to the bone, but to the very marrow, means your God rejected me when I believed in him and accepted with everything in me the gospel of grace.

The contributors here are Calvinists. As such we do not believe in salvation as you describe it. Men through human decision do not accept the gospel of grace apart from God causing it through regeneration. Therefore, God does not reject those he effectually calls and gives the gift of faith. Your professed faith was not wrought by God the Holy Spirit and was a false faith. As you put yourself, it was a delusion. You have made a correct judgment about your faith being delusional and have assumed that everyone else with faith must also be delusional. Unless you are really an agnostic posing as an atheist, you have simply exchanged a faith in God for a faith in nonsense. To place your faith in an uncaused cause other than a supreme intelligent being is to embrace the ultimate in hocus pocus magic.