Wednesday, June 18, 2008

Does God reject anyone with true saving faith?

Question: Why would ANY of us wish ALL of our families to be saved if GOD doesn't wish ALL of our families to be saved?

Answer: I think it is important to remember that God has a perceptive will and a decretive will. He has also given man a free will that is not forced. He allows man to reject his perceptive will. For example He said “Do not murder”, but men murder. Being sovereign, He also has a will of decree or decretive will that accomplishes all that He intends even through the evil of men. For example, Joseph told his brothers, “You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good……..” and also the crucifixion of Jesus was by God’s set plan and purpose. This will is accomplished.

As to salvation, God does desire, in his perceptive will, that everyone would be saved. For example, Jesus said, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! “ (Mt. 23:37)

He has given a sincere offer to all. For example:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”


Therefore, God does not reject anyone who comes with true saving faith to salvation. Unless one believes in universalism, some people are not and will not be saved regardless of the true meaning of election. What if the Bible teaches that man will not come to saving faith if left to his own free will and fallen nature? What if God decided to use his will of decree to intervene and save some who would not be saved otherwise?

If this is true, then this is True Free Grace because God sovereignly saves sinners who would not otherwise be saved. God does it all by changing through regeneration the hearts of men and bringing them willingly to saving faith in Christ. What marvelous grace this would be! This is true free grace and is what Calvinists believe.

We should by all means pray for and witness to our families and everyone else since we have no idea whom God will quicken and bring to faith. Perhaps such burning desire for someone’s salvation is what God uses to bring his elect to salvation. That is why Calvinism places such a great emphasis on evangelism and missions.

Any other comments or thoughts???

by: jazzycat

26 comments:

jazzycat said...

When we consider our saving faith, there is no boasting in our human decision, because God did all. We can all point heavenward and give God all the credit. Isn't what Paul is talking about in Romans 9?

Jonathan Moorhead said...

Guys, I like the blog! Hopefully the Lord will use it to direct people to the historic usage of "free grace" as that act of God where He sovereignly grants faith and repentance to those dead in sin, to the praise of His glory.

Rose~ said...

Welcome to your new group blog, guys.

I did have a thought as I read this post:
What if the Bible teaches that man will not come to saving faith if left to his own free will and fallen nature?

Non-Calvinists likewise believe that without the Holy Spirit no one would come to faith.

What if God decided to use his will of decree to intervene and save some who would not be saved otherwise?

The Bible teaches that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. The preaching of the gospel and the moving of the Holy Spirit in that preaching is what opens men's ears and hearts so that they may exercise faith in Christ's winning of our pardon. The Bible doesn't say the "decree of God is the power of God unto salvation."

Just my thoughts. Have a good time over here. :~)

mark pierson said...

Welcome to your new group blog, guys.
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Thanks, Rose!
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I did have a thought as I read this post:
What if the Bible teaches that man will not come to saving faith if left to his own free will and fallen nature?

Non-Calvinists likewise believe that without the Holy Spirit no one would come to faith.
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AMEN!!!
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What if God decided to use his will of decree to intervene and save some who would not be saved otherwise?

The Bible teaches that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. The preaching of the gospel and the moving of the Holy Spirit in that preaching is what opens men's ears and hearts so that they may exercise faith in Christ's winning of our pardon.
================
AMEN!!!
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The Bible doesn't say the "decree of God is the power of God unto salvation."
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AMEN!!! But keep in mind that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy... Election is an exhibition of His mercy. If not for election NO ONE would be saved, for they would all love their sins too much to care about the things of God.

jazzycat said...

Rose,
Thanks. Since we both agree the Holy Spirit is involved in bringing someone to true saving faith, we should look at Scripture to see if there is just one call by the HS through the preaching of the Word or if there is also a more effectual call that is 100% effective. Certainly the call goes out to everyone through the preaching of the Word as you say. This is a sincere and men are responsible to heed it. Many don’t as we know. However, the Bible indicates there is deeper and perfect call that God gives that is effective. This call is effective because the HS so quickens the souls of humans that they are literally born again (regenerated). They are new creatures with new desires. The bible tells us about regeneration, “ Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.” Then they willingly of their own free will come to faith in Jesus. The following passages are some that speak of an effectual call that is perfect. Since it is perfect, we know that everyone does not receive this call:

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


All of these verses indicate a call that is 100% effective. Since it is 100% effective, then we can logically deduct that everyone does not receive this call.

Therefore, we must conclude that God uses two calls to bring men unto salvation. The general or external call that you spoke of is very important and that is why Calvinists are such strong supporters of evangelism and missions. However, the effectual call is also required and we do not know who and when this call will go out from God. It took about 50 years in my case.

Dawn said...

Not to answer for Rose, but here's my take.

Mark, you said, “But keep in mind that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy...

God has mercy on those who believe.

Mark, you said, “Election is an exhibition of His mercy. If not for election NO ONE would be saved, for they would all love their sins too much to care about the things of God.

People are elected upon the condition of faith and it is by GRACE that we are saved. Without GRACE no one would be saved. The GRACE of God enables us to respond to the gospel.

Dawn said...

Again, not answering for Rose, just giving my two cents.

Jazzy, you said, "Certainly the call goes out to everyone through the preaching of the Word as you say. This is a sincere and men are responsible to heed it. Many don’t as we know."

How can this call be a sincere call and men be held responsible for not heeding the call if they, according to Calvinism, cannot heed to it unless enabled by God's so-called irresistible grace? The truth is that it is not a sincere call since not everyone is enabled to respond or even understand. You say many don't. Shouldn't you say many can‘t?

Jazzy, you said, “However, the Bible indicates there is deeper and perfect call that God gives that is effective. This call is effective because the HS so quickens the souls of humans that they are literally born again (regenerated). They are new creatures with new desires.

The call is always perfect, however, I agree that there is a deeper degree to the call once someone accepts the call. When someone accepts the call that call becomes a call according to His purposes. We are called to be a particular way and to do particular things.

Jazzy, you said, “The bible tells us about regeneration, “ Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.”

How is one considered to be “in Christ”? The answer, through faith. (Ephesians 1:11-13) Once we place our faith IN CHRIST we THEN become a new creation.


Jazzy, you said, “John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Romans 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

All of these verses indicate a call that is 100% effective. Since it is 100% effective, then we can logically deduct that everyone does not receive this call.

Therefore, we must conclude that God uses two calls to bring men unto salvation.


God calls everyone. The call is 100% effective once a person actually receives the call. None of the verses you’ve provided prove there is any such thing as two calls.

Jazzy, you said, “The general or external call that you spoke of is very important and that is why Calvinists are such strong supporters of evangelism and missions.

Why is the general/external call so important? Seems to me that the so-called “effectual” call would be the only call necessary since it is the only one that actually matters to God, according to Calvinists.

jazzycat said...

Dawn,
The GRACE of God enables us to respond to the gospel.

So true and I have presented verses that show conclusively that this grace is 100% effective. Therefore, since all are not saved, this saving grace is not extended to all.

jazzycat said...

Dawn,
God has mercy on those who believe.

Agreed.

jazzycat said...

Shouldn't you say many can‘t?

Yes, that is true!

The call is always perfect, however, I agree that there is a deeper degree to the call once someone accepts the call. When someone accepts the call that call becomes a call according to His purposes. We are called to be a particular way and to do particular things.

Do you realize that you are either asserting that man can thwart God’s purpose by not accepting the call or you are agreeing with election? Which is it?

(Ephesians 1:11-13) Once we place our faith IN CHRIST we THEN become a new creation.

Dawn, you must distinguish between regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Regeneration leads to faith and conversion and at this point sinners are sealed (indwelt) by the Holy Spirit.

God calls everyone. The call is 100% effective once a person actually receives the call.

So, do you believe every human being who has ever lived has heard the gospel? The verses I gave indicate that unless God intervenes, the call will be 100% ineffective.

Why is the general/external call so important?

God uses the general/external call to convict sinners and bring them to faith.

If it requires man’s free will human decision to respond to God’s call as you say, then what causes some men of equal background to respond and others not to respond? Is it righteousness, intelligence, or something else? What attribute is it and where did they obtain that attribute? Do human beings have any attribute that is not from God? We agree that all that believe are saved, but how can anyone believe apart from something they received from God? Did you choose your DNA? Did you choose your parents? Did you choose the country and the time you would be born? Yet we are to believe that faith in Christ comes from something that we did not receive from God? Are you saying everything we have comes from God except the ability to make the crucial important decision of coming to faith in Christ?

mark pierson said...

"Mark, you said, “But keep in mind that God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy... “

God has mercy on those who believe."
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Those who believe do so because they are the elect - Romans 9:18, 21, 23-24; 11:2-7.
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"Mark, you said, “Election is an exhibition of His mercy. If not for election NO ONE would be saved, for they would all love their sins too much to care about the things of God.“

People are elected upon the condition of faith"
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The Bible nowhere teaches that. Please show me exactly where the Bible teaches that people are elected upon the condition of faith. Such teaching is not only unbiblical but presents a merited election.
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"and it is by GRACE that we are saved. Without GRACE no one would be saved. The GRACE of God enables us to respond to the gospel.
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Amen! John 3:3-8; Titus 3:3-7.

Dawn said...

Jazzy, you said, "So true and I have presented verses that show conclusively that this grace is 100% effective. Therefore, since all are not saved, this saving grace is not extended to all."

The verses you presented prove no such thing.

Jazzy, you said, "Do you realize that you are either asserting that man can thwart God’s purpose by not accepting the call or you are agreeing with election? Which is it?"

I realize that YOU (and other Calvinists) believe I'm asserting that man can thwart God, but that doesn't make it so. Man could NEVER thwart God's purposes.

Man can resist and reject the Holy Spirit when confronted by Him. The elect are those who believe and do not reject the Holy Spirit.

Jazzy, you said, "Dawn, you must distinguish between regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Regeneration leads to faith and conversion and at this point sinners are sealed (indwelt) by the Holy Spirit."

No. Faith leads to regeneration. It is BY grace THROUGH faith that we are saved and once we are justified we are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. You've got it backwards.

Jazzy, you said, "So, do you believe every human being who has ever lived has heard the gospel? The verses I gave indicate that unless God intervenes, the call will be 100% ineffective."

No, not everyone has heard the gospel, but that doesn't mean that everyone doesn't have the chance to repent. The very creation points to God and He has revealed Himself to EVERYONE. If they continually reject that drawing (and I'm sure countless other forms of drawing grace) within their hearts then they may never hear the gospel because they've rejected God and would not receive the gospel anyway. God looks upon the heart.

Jazzy, you said, "God uses the general/external call to convict sinners and bring them to faith."

How can the general call convict sinners? I thought the non-elect could not understand such a call so cannot be convicted of sin since they cannot understand one iota of things spiritual.

You haven't answered how this call could be considered in ANY way GENUINE. What is so GENUINE about it, Jazzy?

Jazzy, you said, "...then what causes some men of equal background to respond and others not to respond?"

Only God knows the answer to that one; however, He did tell us that it was a matter of the heart.

Why does God not take pleasure in the death of the wicked if it is Him who sends them there since they were NEVER elect in the first place and He didn't even die for them? The only thing that makes sense is that these people had the ability, but God's holiness and justice demand that punishment be made and if they won't accept Jesus' punishment then they must pay for their sins with their own souls.

Jesus loved Judas and was sorry to see him reject and betray him. Jesus loved the Pharisees and tried very hard to get them to see that He was indeed the Messiah. Why would He be so sorrowful if He never died for them in the first place and in fact HATED them as you think God HATED Esau BEFORE he was even born?

Jazzy, you said, "Do human beings have any attribute that is not from God?"

No.

Jazzy, you said, "Yet we are to believe that faith in Christ comes from something that we did not receive from God? Are you saying everything we have comes from God except the ability to make the crucial important decision of coming to faith in Christ?"

No, that's not what I'm saying. Everything we have does come from God and we all have faith. It just depends upon where we place that faith. We must place our faith in Jesus to save us from our sin. We wouldn't naturally seek Him, but thankfully He seeks us and this enables people to respond positively to the gospel.

You said that the decision to come to Christ is crucial and important and I wholeheartedly agree. You are trying to convince people that GOD who IS love would withhold this faith from billions of people and send them to Hell without giving them a GENUINE chance to repent (remember they are not elect from before the foundation of the world so there was NEVER a chance in Hell that they could be saved)? That is NOT what the bible teaches about God and His love for all mankind.

Why did Jesus die for EVERY MAN, Jazzy? What was the point?

Why does God love animals more than some people?

I gotta go for now. Mark, I will try to answer you later.

Dawn said...

P.S. I'm not yelling when I type in all caps. Just being lazy with the html. It's easier to type in caps when emphasizing my point.

jazzycat said...

Dawn,
How can the general call convict sinners? I thought the non-elect could not understand such a call so cannot be convicted of sin since they cannot understand one iota of things spiritual.

Correct and that is why it takes the Holy Spirit to quicken and regenerate them so they can understand the general call.

You haven't answered how this call could be considered in ANY way GENUINE. What is so GENUINE about it, Jazzy?

God offers salvation and man is responsible for his sin. There are many who do not accept the offer under both systems so your view has no high ground here.

Only God knows the answer to that one; however, He did tell us that it was a matter of the heart.

Fair enough. Where did believers receive their will to have a heart for God? Was it in of themselves are from God? Since you state later in your comment that humans have no attributes that do not come from God, then having a “heart for God” in fact is from God!

We wouldn't naturally seek Him, but thankfully He seeks us and this enables people to respond positively to the gospel.

You are getting close because this is exactly what happens in that 100% that are enabled to respond do respond and are saved. Since you do not believe that, then please tell me what attribute the ones that do respond use that they did not receive from God? If they did receive it from God, then this attribute is obviously not in those who do not come to faith.

You are trying to convince people that GOD who IS love would withhold this faith from billions of people and send them to Hell without giving them a GENUINE chance to repent (remember they are not elect from before the foundation of the world so there was NEVER a chance in Hell that they could be saved)?

Due to man’s fallen nature men are dead in sin and none would come faith apart from God! Those he quickens and saves are recipients of his mercy and the rest are recipients of his justice. If God really wanted to be fair shouldn’t he have save everyone? Either way many are not saved and God is allowing that to happen. You have no high ground here with your view.

Dawn said...

I said, "How can the general call convict sinners? I thought the non-elect could not understand such a call so cannot be convicted of sin since they cannot understand one iota of things spiritual."

Jazzy, you said, "Correct and that is why it takes the Holy Spirit to quicken and regenerate them so they can understand the general call."

But the bible says that Jesus convicts the world of sin (John 16:8) which is contrary to what you've stated. Regeneration is not needed for someone to be convicted of sin, nor is it needed for someone to place their faith in Jesus. Regeneration comes AFTER one has placed their faith in Jesus. (John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8-9, etc.)

Jazzy, you said, "Since you do not believe that, then please tell me what attribute the ones that do respond use that they did not receive from God? If they did receive it from God, then this attribute is obviously not in those who do not come to faith."

Faith, which everyone has. It just depends upon where they will place that faith. It depends upon what is in a man's heart which is what God looks upon.

Jazzy, you said, "If God really wanted to be fair shouldn’t he have save everyone?"

No, not necessarily. He is God and He can make the stipulations just as He pleases which is what Romans 9 is all about. He says He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. And we know that it pleases Him to save those who believe (I Corinthinas 1:21) and that it is believers on whom He has mercy. And we know that no one can come to the Father unless He is drawn and we know that He draws ALL men, including all kinds of men. We know that He wishes all to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth and that He died for EVERY MAN and that He does NOT take pleasure in the death of the wicked and wishes that they would repent and LIVE. And that is why He sent His son into this world to die for them so that they could be saved if they would believe.

Jazzy, you said, "Either way many are not saved and God is allowing that to happen. You have no high ground here with your view."

Right, God is allowing it to happen because they have rejected His only begotten Son, NOT because they NEVER had a chance because they were not selected from before the foundation of the world for reasons only known to God. God has told us that He saves BELIEVERS. God has said that He draws ALL to Him and gives them a genuine chance to repent.

Jazzy, you said, "There are many who do not accept the offer under both systems so your view has no high ground here."

In my system people CAN accept the offer, but in your system some CANNOT. There was NEVER a genuine chance to accept the offer. You assert that this offer is genuine to ALL yet you have not explained how an offer can be genuine when God does not enable everyone to accept the offer.

You still have not answered the following:

"Why did Jesus die for EVERY MAN, Jazzy? What was the point?

Why does God love animals more than some people?
"

I'll add these:

If God IS love and love is all that I Corinthians 13 says that it is and if we're to love our enemies as we love ourselves then how does a loving God send people to Hell for reasons unknown to us (which is contrary to His word)?

If God is our Father and we are to be like our Father with our own families and we would NEVER wish anyone in our own families to go to hell not having done good or bad since it is decided BEFORE we are even born, how do you see it that God would choose only SOME of His children to go to heaven and allow the vast majority to go to hell? Some of you have children and, for good reason, would NEVER want them to go to Hell, especially without giving them a chance to escape that punishment, if there was a way! Remember, the decision is made BEFORE they've done good or bad so sin hasn't even entered the picture yet.

God, IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY, allows everyone a chance to repent. THAT is biblical and in line with the character God has shown us of Himself throughout His word.

jazzycat said...

Dawn,
You make a lot theological claims and assert they are absolute truth such as "Christ died for everyone." You have also thrown out a list of questions about God's attributes such as love etc. I am limited in my time, but I would refer you to the evangelism explosion website (EE) for answers to several and as to who Christ died for let me say this:

In John 17, Chirst makes a point of praying only for the believers that God has predestined, "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." I find it very hard to believe Christ would die for people he would not pray for! Dawn, Christ only died for those that he prayed for. I am not going to engage in a debate on the atonement at this time as the subject is election.

Dawn said...

Mark, you said, "Those who believe do so because they are the elect - Romans 9:18, 21, 23-24; 11:2-7."

Wrong. They are the elect because they do so. Please show me where in ANY of these scriptures it states that GOD chose them and MADE them be believers.

The ones prepared for glory are those who have received Jesus as Lord. He has mercy on those who do not reject Jesus. He saved to Himself those who did not bow the knee to Baal and those who have not rejected Jesus as Messiah. It doesn't say that He CAUSED these people to not bow the knee to Baal or to believe.

Mark, you said, "The Bible nowhere teaches that [people are elected upon the condition of faith]. Please show me exactly where the Bible teaches that people are elected upon the condition of faith. Such teaching is not only unbiblical but presents a merited election."

Elect means to be chosen. Who does God choose? Answer, those who believe. (Matthew 22:1-14; John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:22; 4:24; 5:2; 9:32; I Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8-9, etc.)

There is no boasting in faith, nor is it a work. (Romans 3:27; Ephesians 2:8-9)

This is all I'm going to answer as Jazzy has refused to answer my other questions. Thanks for the dialogue.

mark pierson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
mark pierson said...

>Mark, you said, "Those who believe do so because they are the elect - Romans 9:18, 21, 23-24; 11:2-7."

Wrong. They are the elect because they do so. Please show me where in ANY of these scriptures it states that GOD chose them and MADE them be believers.<
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Dawn, keeping in mind that my position lets the apostle speak and does not mute his pen by suggesting that the OT should dictate the context here in Romans 9-11; I shall proceed to explain biblicist position.

The Holy Spirit can take OT scripture and reinterpret them in the NT. Take for example Romans 9:25 where Paul is quoting Hosea 2:23. In the original God was speaking to Israel. In the Romans passage Paul is applying it to Gentiles. Again in verse 9:26 Paul is quoting Hosea 1:10. In Hosea Israel is spoken about. In Romans Paul applies it to Gentiles. No where are we invitied to go back to those OT scriptures for the retelling of the stories those OT scriptures come from. Paul is unfolding God's mind in these verses and progressing revelation of God. Your hermeneutic is not warranted in scripture.

Romans 9 was written to comfort those in chapter 8:28-39. If nothing can separate from the love of God then the objection can be raised that God rejected OT Israel. In chapter 9 Paul is saying that is not so. The word of God HAS taken effect, 9:6. Those Israelites that do not believe are those that are not true Israel. The true children of Abraham are those who believe. Election to salvation is most deffinitly in view here. Again a progressive revelation is taking place, not the retelling of the original story these passages come from.

It is only the elect who will make the right choice. We must let Paul's commentary stand on its own. He picked only a portion of Genesis 25:23, and only a portion of Malachi 1:2-3. Not the whole verses in either case. Then we check the commentary of Paul in these verses where he quotes these OT verses - 9:10-13. His commentary speaks of election. His commentary should carry the day here. The NT writers should always be what interprets the OT. In his commentary he is trying to illustrate that God saves by election. It is an import of a man made system that demands that we carry over the original OT context, especially since Paul merely quotes only small portions of those passages from the OT. He quoted those small portions of those passages to illustrate a point; and his commentary alone is what we are to observe, not feed our own hermeneutic to it.

Nowhere in that chapter is Paul inviting us to use the OT to set the context, nowhere. That approach strips Paul the Apostle of his Holy Spirit granted right to use the OT as the Spirit leads him to. It waters down a message that is clearly the aim of the chapter: "the purpose of God according to election... of Him who calls... the choice of one over another...His having mercy on whom He pleases, and hardening whom He pleases... there being vessels for honor, and others for dishonor; His taking out from the same lump those whom He will save and conform to the image of His Son, while leaving the others to their own chosen ends - the rejection of God, hostility towards Him, and the suffering the consequences for living that way.

Look at Galatians 5:19-21. We see there the life of a person that does not have the Spirit of God present within. To be sure there are no godward qualities there. There is nothing there that would seek God. In fact all that is mentioned there is hostile to God. Does John mention in vain that light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil, John 3:19-20? It says there that everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed - this is talking about all of humanity.

Back to Galatians 5. We pick up in verse 22 - the fruit of the Spirit. Note that none of these qualties can exist within a person if that person has not God the Holy Spirit living within. There would be no love for God, and the resulting love for man who is created in His image. There would be no faithfulness in serving God. In fact, in Romans 12:3, we see that God has dealt to every saint a measure of faith. In short, there would be no "looking to God" at all without the Holy Spirit's influence. That is why one must be born from above, John 3:3-8; Titus 3:4-7 - in order to even see the Kingdom of God. The things of God are foolishness to the unregenerate, 1 Cor. 1:18. The carnal mind is enmity against God; it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be, Romans 8:7.

Man is minus the life of God, Eph. 4:18, and his understanding is darkened, both Jews and Gentiles. See Eph. 2:1-3.

My answer is from Romans 11:4-7. Israel has gone about to establish their own righteousness nad have not submitted to the righteousness of God, Romans 10:1-3. They stumbled on Christ, Romans 9:33. They had become a disobedient and contrary people, Rom. 10:21. Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have. Yes, there is that elect remnant. That remnant is so because of the working of God's Spirit.

My point is that nothing short of the New Birth would enable a totally depraved person to even see his need for Christ, or anything about His kingdom.

I'll ask you to consider John 5:24-29 - the now, not yet of the rssurection. Verses 25-26 clearly are teaching about those dead in sin coming to life at the hearing of Christ's voice. (the New Birth) While verse 28 goes on to discuss those who are in graves coming forth in the resurrection. In verse 25, "those who hear will live", is the New Birth.

Dawn, I ask you to look at Galatians 5:19-21 - the works of the flesh... adultry, fornication, uncleaness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkeness, revelries, and the like. This is before the second birth. From which of these does a compliant heart to the gospel originate? It cannot!Hense the need for regeneration, the work of the Spirit as He accompanies His word into the heart of that elect one. NOWHERE is prevenient grace taught.

Notice that John 5:25 says,"The hour is coming, and now is, when the *dead* shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." The dead are quickened by God, Eph.
2:1,5; Col.2:13, and go on to believe as a result of the new life within, Eph. 2:8-9; 1 John 5:1. Think of it this way: When a baby is born they take their first breath BECAUSE they are alive. They then go on to live because they breath. A person believes because he/she is alive. They go on to receive all the benefits of Christ's crosswork through that faith.

So we have in Romans 9-11 election, and that unto eternal life. The elect are shown mercy and believe because they are elect, while the rest are left in their sins and will experience God's justice.

Mark

mark pierson said...

>Elect means to be chosen.<
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AGREED!!!
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>Who does God choose? Answer, those who believe. (Matthew 22:1-14; John 1:12; Acts 16:31; Romans 3:22; 4:24; 5:2; 9:32; I Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 1:13; 2:8-9, etc.)<
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1 John 5:1 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Public Domain



1 John 5
1Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:

mark pierson said...

See, Dawn, in that verse that believing is the result of having been begotten of God; not the other way around.

mark pierson said...

I don't know about you, Dawn, but had not God elected me in eternity past He sure would not have elected me after. If He had not elected me to salvation I would have gone on in rebellion against Him, and would have taken that rebellion to the grave. I do not go along with that proud thinking that God foresaw my faith in Him and therefore elected me.
Nowhere in Romans 8:29 is forseen faith mentioned. It is, "For whom He foreknew". I do not see any mention of faith there. That "faith" is spoken of here is an import over here by those who wish to persist in their stubborness.

mark pierson said...

Unlike the Arminian I was not wise enough, nor my heart soft enough, to receive Christ but for election.

mark pierson said...

Romans 3:11 - There is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. Vs 12 - they have all turned aside...

If there were such a thing as "prevenient grace" it would receive some mention from Paul at this point. But, alas! no mention at all.

Also, Ephesians 2:1-3 is clear - all are dead in trespasses and sins (minus the life of God, Eph.4:18),all walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince and power of the air, the spirit who works in the sons of disobedience (all men), conducting themselves in the lusts of the flesh and mind, and are by nature children of wrath. Again, there would be mention of prevenient grace here if such a thing existed. But, no. Instead it says that the remedy is that God has made us alive together with Christ - REGENERATION.

mark pierson said...

Dawn,

There is no escaping the conclussion that what Arminians preach and teach is MERITED election - that God elects those who believe. This is indeed poison. God saw nothing in any of us other than a wayward, rebellious race who did not seek nor understand Him - this includes ALL people. As Jonathan says in his comment, "Hopefully the Lord will use it (this blog) to direct people to the historic usage of "free grace" as that act of God where He sovereignly grants faith and repentance to those dead in sin, to the praise of His glory."

Mark

mark pierson said...

Dawn,
The desire you have for lost souls, to read and study your Bible, to pray, to walk by faith and to please God - ALL these things are the result of God's working in you to will and to do His good peasure. They are All by His enabling. In short, they are ALL there because God bestowed them. They were not there by themselves. As He gave you breath, and you breath, so He gave you faith, and you believe.